Subject: Digest for 4/21/99 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:45:32 -0700 From: "XTension Discussion" To: "XTension Discussion" -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by Greg Satz -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by michael@shed.com -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by Steve Fyfe -> Re: RCS Thermostats Anyone? by Steve Fyfe -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by "Joseph A. Wardell" -> Re: Analog over X-10 by petitg@llb.saclay.cea.fr (Petitgrand) -> An Old Bug by michael@shed.com -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by john.brumleve@kzf.com -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by strader@andrew.cmu.edu -> Re: About X-10 Dimming by Chad A Gard -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by "Chuck and Karen Coleman" -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by jon@macgeek.com -> Re: About X-10 Dimming by john.brumleve@kzf.com -> Re: Advice for new house by petitg@llb.saclay.cea.fr (Petitgrand) -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by Tresy Kilbourne -> Re: An idea for a new feature. by Chad A Gard -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by Chad A Gard -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by Tresy Kilbourne -> Re: An idea for a new feature. by Steve Fyfe -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by "g. ross meyer" -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by "Joseph A. Wardell" -> Xtension in a hard-wired system? by JasonY@aol.com -> X-10 ALL commands by michael@shed.com -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by Chad A Gard -> Re: Xtension in a hard-wired system? by michael@shed.com -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by Chad A Gard -> Re: X-10 ALL commands by "Joseph A. Wardell" -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by Steve Fyfe -> Re: Advice for new house by Chad A Gard -> Re: An idea for a new feature. by Chad A Gard -> Re: X-10 ALL commands by "Joseph A. Wardell" -> Re: X-10 ALL commands by michael@shed.com -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by michael@shed.com -> Re: Re: Serial Port Silliness by Iamsmall@aol.com -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by Robert Ladle -> Re: Serial Port Silliness by hvaneeden@worldnet.att.net -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by hvaneeden@worldnet.att.net -> Fwd: xtension problems by Tresy Kilbourne -> Re: Fwd: xtension problems by michael@shed.com -> Re: X-10 ALL commands by Steve Fyfe -> Feature request: Do not log unit checkbox by "Michael S. Holtzman" -> Extended Code problem by michael@shed.com -> Re: Extended Code problem by Mark Hartman -> Re: X-10 ALL commands by "Joseph A. Wardell" -> Re: Extended Code problem by michael@shed.com -> Re: X-10 ALL commands by michael@shed.com -> Re: xtension problems by "Chuck and Karen Coleman" -> Re: X-10 ALL commands by hvaneeden@worldnet.att.net -> Re: RCS Thermostats Anyone? by Marc Parker -> Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted by BHusler@PacBell.net -> Re: Fwd: xtension problems by Greg Satz -> Re: Extended Code problem by Greg Satz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Apr 1999 23:03:01 -0700 From: Greg Satz Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness Jez. So you keep applescript in the boot up sequence and remove everything else. Alternatively you use a terminal emulator that doesn't need applescript... Your acerbic response will prevent me from responding to your requests for help in the future. Hopefully Michael will refund your money soon. Greg At 10:10 PM -0700 4/20/99, Tresy Kilbourne wrote: >Greg Satz writes: > > >Try removing your extensions/applications to see which one is eating > >your serial port. A quick test is to boot with the shift key down. > >This will prevent all extensions from loading. >Yes, including AppleScript, so then XTension won't run. So unless I want >to manually remove every extension except AS, that's not an option. I >have tried removing all serial port related software though, to no avail. >Thanks for taking the time to help though. > >_____________ >Tresy Kilbourne >Seattle WA >PGP Keys ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Apr 1999 23:41:12 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted Hi Folks, Let's be nice. It's been a year since the last sour words here and I'm sure you've all appreciated it. Tresy has a problem and it's the mission of this list to help in such a way that all may benefit. Now back to Tresy: Please be advised that michael does make mistakes, and often really stupid ones. I don't think I've ever been guilty of deliberately evading culpability for bugs or stupid statements, but I often need help in describing and isolating a problem. We've all been the brunt of brain-dead help lines, and I can't blame you for assuming that this is just another one. This list is stacked with developers and a wide range of experience. But an argumentative tone will not entice them to offer their help. If I could just get you give me the benefit of the doubt, then I'm sure we could get to the bottom of this problem. You got me. If you have the Prefs option "Do write current time" enabled, XTension will write the current time to the Prefs file every minute. It's something that I don't use very often so I forgot about it. Also, if you execute a script that changes the Prefs then indeed the Prefs file will be written. I've already admitted that I can't say that there are no bugs in XTension, but I still believe that the problems you are currently having are more likely to be other things which are expectable flukes and common X-10 signal problems. I assume that you're not seeing more of the corrupted Prefs problem, so let's put that aside for now. Regarding the "All Units OFF" and "DIM" problem: We are talking here about one unit, and I would ask that you try the DIM and All Units OFF commands on a different unit, in a different socket. This is not your normal help line. I have here several Macs, with different controllers, as well as the source code for XTension on screen. I am always looking for the possibility that something is broke, and indeed tonight while working with another customer who was willing to work with me, I was able to find an obscure bug which has been in the code for over a year, but since no one was doing just that thing, it hasn't been noticed. I was able with his help to isolate the bug and quickly send him a new version that fixed it. I'll be posting an update to the website as soon as I'm sure it's soup. The buck stops here, and if you find that you run out of patience, then I will sorrowfully, but promptly refund your bucks... michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 02:48:27 -0700 From: Steve Fyfe Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted Tresy Kilbourne said on 4/20/1999 6:46 PM >Now, >for example, my kitchen lamp responds to an "all units off" message, as >well as from a direct "A1 On/Off" command, from the X10 Control menu >command, but NOT to an "all lights on" or "all lights off" command from >the same menu choice. Depending on how your kitchen lamp is controled, it may not respond to the All Lights Off command, no matter how you send that command. Most common lamp modules do not recognize that command - they only respond to the All Units Off command. For some unknown reason, X10 Corp defined the x10 command set and included the All Lights Off command, but then proceded to design lamp modules that totaly ignore it. _____________________________________________________________ Steve Fyfe Windward Services Group (978) 386-7260 PO Box 340 (978) 386-7322 Fax Ashby, Massachusetts 01431-0340 Information Technology that Works for Your Business ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 02:49:24 -0700 From: Steve Fyfe Subject: Re: RCS Thermostats Anyone? Marc Parker said on 4/20/1999 10:15 AM >I would like to hear from anyone out there who are actually using this >product. Tell me I haven't wasted $230! Mine works fine. What kind of problems are you having? _____________________________________________________________ Steve Fyfe Windward Services Group (978) 386-7260 PO Box 340 (978) 386-7322 Fax Ashby, Massachusetts 01431-0340 Information Technology that Works for Your Business ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 05:18:00 -0700 From: "Joseph A. Wardell" Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness Tresy, A quick search through info-mac finds a little 12k program called port-closer-10.hqx. It simply closes a serial port that is or was used by an application (either the app is sitting on it or quit but hasn't let it go). This sounds like your problem. My suggestion: * Download it. * Restart * Run Port Closer and close whichever port you have the CM11 connected to * Run XTension If you still have the same problem, then it is time for michael to refund your money, since there's obviously something very wrong. If it does work, then you know that something's sitting on that port, and it's a manner of finding out what. If you don't like Greg's suggestion, then how about using the trial version of Conflict Catcher? It will do all the extension-switching for you until you find the offending file. THis is bordering on the bizarre at this point, though... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 05:49:18 -0700 From: petitg@llb.saclay.cea.fr (Petitgrand) Subject: Re: Analog over X-10 Greg Satz wrote on Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:35:12 -0600: >I would be happy to test it but the way I read it is that the quad >interface is dependent on the serial/x10 ultra interface. Without >ultra support, I didn't think there was much to test. Did I misread >it? > >Greg That's not exactly what I understood. They claim that they have implemented the (nearly) unused extended data of the X10 protocol. This is not a home-brewed solution (as was the LynX-Port). Thus I guess that any interface capable to manage extended data can talk to the Quad transceiver. Presently the only one is the CM11, apart from their Ultra. Right now the problem could be on the serial side, since If I remember well Michael has succeeded to send extended data to the CM11, but not to read. But LynX-10 PLC/Quad transceiver should work. Anyway, I agree it would need a confirmation from Baran-Harper. Daniel Petitgrand ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 06:48:19 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: An Old Bug Hi Folks, The recent problem with Marc Parker's RCS thermostat was aggravated by a number of problems, but one of the turned out to be a bug in XTension that has been there for over a year...with his kind help, I was able to isolate and fix it. This regards only the LynX version of XTension, and only the 'preset address' command. The 'preset dim' commands have been used for some time, and no one has reported a problem with them so it was very surprising. There are two different verbs : preset "unit name" to level X and preset address "[X-10 address]" to level X Since most folks create database units and command them by name, the second form of this verb has not been used very much. It is this verb that commands by 'address' that has the problem. The verb that commands by 'name' works fine. The characteristic of the failure is that the 'level' that gets sent always 'picks a bit'. Levels above 15 appear to work fine, however levels 0-15 always get incremented by 16 in the message that gets transmitted. ie: preset address "A1" to level 0 (actually sends level 16) This does not affect the receive side. Preset Dim messages received are correct. This also does not affect the CM11 version of XTension. I've found the bug in the code, corrected and tested it here. If anyone has a particular need for this update, let me know and I'll send you a copy. Otherwise, it will be in the next (beta) release. Thanks to Marc for the help! michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 07:15:11 -0700 From: john.brumleve@kzf.com Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted Hi Sven, > on 04_20_1999 22:06, Tresy Kilbourne wrote: > >either the CM11 or the adjacent outlet it's plugged into, because > >my computer plug occupies the CM11 outlet, and the bulk of the > >interface > > One of the cardinal rules of X-10 use is to separate line noise > generators from the tranceivers and receivers as much as possible. > > Running your Mac and its monitor through the CM11 is most likely > asking for trouble. Thanks for pointing this out. I personally have tested the signal strength absorbed and/or "sucked" out of the powerline by various devices in my household. Computers (IIci's, in my case,) were, by far, some of the worst offenders I found. (I doubt that the power supply design of newer computers has been improved any in this respect, since they have gotten cheaper over the years.) Powerline signal strength levels were reduced *at the interface* by approximately 50% by a computer that was plugged into a completely different circuit! Re-iteration-- The worst "signal-suck" offenders I found in my house were: Computers TV's (Sony's, in my case) X-10 Alarm system console and to a lesser degree, all X-10 transmitting devices Magic Bullet: The "Plug-In Noise Reducer" filter (AKA Leviton 6288, among others: $22-25) used at the offending device, eliminated its ability to "suck" the powerline signal. Plugging your computer into the CM11 outlet is likely to to result in having your powerline signals "mugged at the front door." (Leaving AND Arriving) Providing that outlet on the CM11 is yet another of X-10's mistakes. Tresy, Unless *you have the test equipment* to verify the computer's innocence in this respect, at least humor us: Grab a big orange extension cord and connect the G3 to some other circuit and test your signals at the interface, as described by Michael. Steve's point about the difference between "ALL UNITS" and "ALL LIGHTS" must be considered as well. Regards, John ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 07:21:12 -0700 From: strader@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness Actually, you can use Extensions Manager to accomplish this very easily. Just disable all of your extensions except the ones XTension needs to run (Applescript, anything else?). This should be an easy test to do, and would yield some very useful information. Ross Tresy Kilbourne wrote: > Yes, including AppleScript, so then XTension won't run. So unless I want > to manually remove every extension except AS, that's not an option. I > have tried removing all serial port related software though, to no avail. > Thanks for taking the time to help though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 07:28:44 -0700 From: Chad A Gard Subject: Re: About X-10 Dimming > >XTension will remember that level, and the next time you > turn the unit ON, it will softly brighten the lamp to that level. >When you turn it OFF, XTension will remember to DIM it to zero > automatically. > >Where's the catch? >IF XTension receives DIM or Brighten commands as from a manual >controller for that 'lamp', it will assume that you are changing >the desired 'preset' for it. > >Thus, it is possible for you to set the 'preset' of a unit to >zero, causing it to appear that it's not working. > >Solution: A 'Garbage Collector' script that once a day etc > forces the desired 'lamp' units to a desired 'level'. > Using the format: Brighten "lamp" to 50 with no transmit > Thus the unit is 'preset' to your preference, without turning > on the lamp, and the next time one of your scripts says > 'turn on lamp', then it will go to your desired level smoothly, > without doing the 'nova' thing. > >So what if you use those manual controllers a lot? >Just remember to never turn a lamp 'off', just DIM it to zero... Actually, lets combine all of this into one way that keeps the simulated preset dim preset, and never goes nova except after a power failure (BTW, this is how all of my lamps are set up except the stair lamp, which is turned on directly by a DM10a for response time reasons). First, no controllers will be on the same HC as any lamps. All control goes through XTension. So, I set up a Palm Pad for "downstairs" (actually two of them). The buttons are like so: 1. Movie Macro 2. Torchiere Lamp 3. Starbord Accent Lamp 4. Port Accent Lamp 5. Dining OH Lamp 6. Kitchen OH Lamp 7. Porch Light 8. Blank 9. Thermostat Up/Down 10. Toaster Enabler (my toaster doesn't turn off when the toast pops up) 11. Aquarium Lights 12. Aquarium Lift Filters (they're a bit loud when the water level is low) 13-16 Blank I also have Palm Pads configured for the office, the bedroom, and for guests (2). I have a little standard to make important buttons easy to find: The most important "Macro" for a location is 1. The main light in any room is 2. If possible, all "normal" lights are in the first 8, so the little switch is to the left. With the switch to the right (9-16) the first button controls the thermostat setback. The others control various environmental and macro situations. The Aquarium stuff is considered environmental in this case, because I only really use them when guests are over and I'm watching a movie, and the water level is low or the light seems a bit too bright (ie, we're watching a dark movie). All of these commands are sent to XTension which "re-routes" the commands to "real" units. The attachments script handles all on and all off routines, as well as dim/bri (which I haven't quite got working transparently, but function OK for what I use them for). I do, however, have a few mini controllers that control real units to give smoother dimming where it matters. So, how does this avoid the novas? Well, here goes. We'll use the Starboard Accent Lamp as an example: It's set as preset dim. The normal preset is 75%. Now then, I send an on via a palm pad, XTension sees it, and sends an on, which is actually a stream of dims, as it's preset. I may dim and brighten it a lot, so it may end up a different level. I now turn it off via the palm pad. It turns off, but also, in my off script for the controller (ie, the unit that the palm pad actually controls), the preset dim level is reset. So, in the off script for "Redirect D3" (the palm pad is HC D), I have: turn off "Starboard Accent Lamp" Brighten "Starboard Accent Lamp" to 75 with no transmit So, it goes down nicely due to being "preset dim" and is not off. This will avoid future novas. And, it is reset to 75% for the next on. One thing of note, though....This lamp is also controlled via an MS12a to allow controlled navigation of the living room in the dark. So, in my bedtime script (triggered by the Bik in the Bed (hmmmmm. sounds like something from marketing...)) I include at the end "Brighten "night lamps" to 35 with no transmit "night lamps" is a group of all motion sensor controled lights I want dimmer at night. Currently just the one accent lamp, but will grow to include dining and kitchen and maybe bathroom when I get more sensors. So I was just planning for the future. So now, with el-cheapo modules and 3/4 second additional delay time (which seems to be a problem with a wall switch, but not with a remote - I guess we're conditioned to accept delay with remotes) we can get smooth "preset" on and offs, reliably, and consistantly. Chad Gard Butler University, Instructional Media Services WWW: http://media.butler.edu Equipment Requests: Mailto:request@media.butler.edu Personal Email: Mailto:gard@indy.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 07:32:02 -0700 From: "Chuck and Karen Coleman" Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted Tresy, I can understand your frustration. Most of us on this list have had similar experiences. Sometimes it is a software problem and other times it is system problems while other times it is operator malfunction. I would like to say in Michael's defense that there is no programmer alive that is more responsive to the needs of his customers. He will readily admit to problems in the software if one is found and denies that he walks on water. Might I suggest that you give the group some time to figure out what is happening. We are all reading your posts and will contribute to a solution. With the wide range of people out there we have just about every machine that XTension will run on covered so if it is machine specific that will be dealt with. I agree with Michael in that what you are describing has nothing to do with the preferences. Since you are an experienced user have you tried running Norton to make sure your b-tree is correct. This could cause some of the problems that you describe. Or the possibility that the desktop is corrupted. Even the Finder goes bad from time to time and I have had to replace that several times in the past due to corruption. Be patient with us and we will see what we can do. I had a problem with XTension when I started and found it was a conflict with Kaleidoscope which was corrected in a later version of Kaleidoscope. Chuck Coleman - ---------- > You obviously refuse to believe that a bug in XTension itself may be the > cause of my problems, despite all evidence pointing in that direction. > You may be right, but in my experience I have had many encounters with > software people exactly like this, where I'm defensively told that I > can't possibly be experiencing what I am obviously experiencing, and that > in any case the software is not the problem. In most cases it turns out > that they are wrong, not I. This may prove to be a minority case, but so > far I see no evidence that it is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 07:36:46 -0700 From: jon@macgeek.com Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted A strange thought. If tresy has Nvir Virus on the machine, that will corrupt the preferance file, (also a bad PRAM battery may do the same thing) -- Maybe its as simple as that. Run Nortin anti virus. see what shows up. Jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 07:40:25 -0700 From: john.brumleve@kzf.com Subject: Re: About X-10 Dimming Nice Post Chad! That one gets printed! John - ----------------------------------------------- john.brumleve@kzf.com "As a matter of fact, it's ALL rocket science." - ----------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 07:53:19 -0700 From: petitg@llb.saclay.cea.fr (Petitgrand) Subject: Re: Advice for new house Steve Fyfe wrote on Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:49:54 -0400: >If I were building new, I would dedicate a fairly large closet near the >center of the house for the automation control room. I would put in tons >of wire, all home-run to the control closet. I would wire every window >for a security sensor, window position sensor, curtain control, window >motor. Every room would have wire for an occupancy sensor, room >temperature, and control panel. That's where is the problem. If I wanted to attach one wire to each window, door and curtain of my house, I would need nearly tons of copper! And it's there that we rediscover that a network (bus) is by far preferable. CEBus or I2C are probably the solutions for future, but for now what I would prefer is a RS422 line running down the walls with a small module for each window (or room) talking to the line. Let me list the advantages: - - With old Mac we already have the Mac interface built in (the 2nd Serial Port). - - The small modules already exist (MacBrick http://www.w4r.com/macbrick/) or can be made at areasonable cost with existing UART chips (or PIC). - - It needs only one cable with 7 wires. (2 for RX, 2 for Tx, 2 for Handshake, 1 common). Often half-duplex RS485 is enough which reduces the cable to 5 wires. And for a small area, unbalanced RS232 with 5 wires would do the trick as well. - - The software tools also already exist and are AppleScript compatibles (serial-Port Osax) and thus XTension compatibles. - - And all this is 2-way and analog capable by nature! (better than X-10!) Probably the cheapest hard-wired bus solution, and the most easy to manage with a Mac. Daniel Petitgrand ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 08:10:57 -0700 From: Tresy Kilbourne Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted michael@shed.com writes: >The buck stops here, and if you find that you run out of >patience, then I will sorrowfully, but promptly refund your >bucks... One more time: I solved the problem by trashing the prefs file. Period. Bumblebees can't fly, but they still do. There is a tiny flaw in the X-10 Command panel, as far as I am concerned, that causes the All Lights Off command not to work (btw, this failure affects every module in the house, not just the one I keep referencing). Since it's peripheral to the normal operation of the program I really don't care about persuing it further. This morning the program finally turned on the lights as scheduled, so I am cautiously optimistic that things will continue to work from here, and that I know what to do in the future when they don't. I am sorry if my growing irritation with your apparent refusal to believe what I was telling you offended others on the list. FWIW, I had problems with two other merchants earlier in the day, both of whose attitudes towards my complaints were to deny any responsibility for the problems I was having. I was therefore much less inclined to listen to what struck me as yet another such evasion of responsibility, albeit in much more polite form. I apologize if my tone seemed harsher than warranted. Since I feel I have solved the problem on my own, I regard this thread as at an end. _____________ Tresy Kilbourne Seattle WA PGP Keys ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 08:16:28 -0700 From: Chad A Gard Subject: Re: An idea for a new feature. >Every time that this GUI thing comes up, I mention FaceSpan, >and not one time has anyone responded about it at all. (ok, >maybe once) > >I've got FaceSpan, but since I have no real hurt for GUI, >I just haven't done anything with it. OK, I'll say something about it. I've used FaceSpan before. It's a lot of fun, great little environment, and would work well for creating an alternate GUI for any application as eminantly scriptable as XTension. Particularly if you (the person scripting, not Michael) do enough work to accept the appleEvents from XTension so you could make it the target for so XTension would deal with it like a monitor. As i said, I rarely look at XTension, and most of my current interfacing is done through motion, bik's and Palm Pads. As I work out my LCARS thing that will become my primary interface. >I even think it's possible to 'target' a FaceSpan applet >if it wants to receive real-time events, although this may >take some more work on my part. But even then, you're still >going to have to have handlers for the events. Having not tried it, I think the only thing that would need to change is the optional parameters in the AppleEvents. It seems problematic to receive optional parameters in a script. Perhaps something like sending null values for the optional parameters when they're not needed.... > >Alternately, commands can easily be issued, using a wide >variety of graphics etc. Yes, speaking from experience with my FileMaker LCARS thing, issuing commands is exceptionally easy. > >The only thing that I see missing is the inability to tell >XTension to set the third attribute of the second unit of >the fourth group in the view called "Home" to false... huh? How 'bout Tell application 'XTension' of machine 'big box' turn off 'blender' end tell? Seriously, if you have an alternate interface I somehow doubt you'll be using constructs like that, especially tied to views. I may be completely wrong, of course.... One thing that would be useful would be the ability to call units by their relative position in groups, so "turn off second unit of group 'morning stuff'" so you could rearange units to change functionality, but not scripting. > >What am I not getting? The verbs necessary to do this are >already there. Is the above example the way that everyone >wants to deal with this or is it just the 'programmers'...? >(please, this is not an insult, but a valid question) > >It seems to me that FaceSpan and others have positioned themselves >as products that would indeed chase all of the new graphic >techniques, and they would be perfect mates for XTension. > The one down side to this....FaceSpan (last I checked-a couple years ago) is fairly expensive: arround $200. Fine if you use it a lot, a bit steep to turn on lights. They did have a fully-functional 30 day demo, and if you could finish in 30 days you would have your interface, just no way to change it. As far as others who have positioned themselves as good options for creating GUI's, we probably should not forget Hypercard, plus all of the multimedia authoring programs such as HyperStudio and Digital Chisel. Maybe even Macromedia Director. Anyone who does that sort of stuff will have those apps and should be fine. Likewise, a web interface would not be terribly difficult. And, of course, FileMaker works quite well.... >I'm a real believer in 'partners' and specially in division >of labor. This idea of 'open source' is great for something >like an entire operating system (Linux), but XTension is a >nicely compact part of the whole home automation thing, and >it seems to me to be a good thing to leave it at that, letting >those who 'can', do the GUI with all of the even more 'personal' >aspects of style ... I don't think XTension would work well as an open source thingy. However, an extensible architecture for the GUI would probably be a great help. Think about it, you'd rarely if ever have to delve into that GUI code! Chad Gard Butler University, Instructional Media Services WWW: http://media.butler.edu Equipment Requests: Mailto:request@media.butler.edu Personal Email: Mailto:gard@indy.net "If you're falling off a cliff, you might as well try to fly. After all, you don't have anything to lose." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 08:37:50 -0700 From: Chad A Gard Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness >Michael: As I said some posts back, I don't much care about the serial >port problem on my G3 except in a theoretical way, because I can >accomplish the same functionality using my Performa as the host and my G3 >as a monitor. And indeed, it makes more sense to use it that way from a >number of idiosyncratic standpoints. > Not to mention the fact that you don't want to have your machine that you take to the office with you and surf the web with be required to turn on lights.... >But the problem that makes me think about refunds is the near-instant >corruption of my Xtension prefs file and the ongoing failure of Xtension >to reliably control the units in my house. Frefs file corruption doesn't really happen that often. I had it happen once since I got XTension, back in November, I think, and that was probably due to a disk error. You might consider running disk doctor just to be sure. The near-intantanaity of the corruption is probably more a coincidence than anything. Also, as michael said, try booting with extensions (not XTension) off, and if that doesn't work, use the extension manager to turn off all the control panels as well. There are any number of control panels, applications, and extensions that can grab the serial port, and since you only have one on a laptop, (I'm not getting threads confused, am I?), it could be an application trying to grab either the mode or printer port. If I can't count on the >product in a pinch--say, to scare away burglars while I'm away on >vacation, or to wake us up in the morning--what good is it except as a >high-tech toy to wow one's friends with? ' Well, Michael has some articals on reliability and home automation, and particularly X10 devices that you may want to read. I believe they are available from the appnotes page on the shed site, but am currently on a machine with no web browser so can't check. And don't discount the pleasure of wowing your friends! Just remember that most likely that which you are most happy with and that which will most impress your friends will seldom be the same. In my experience, XTension is extremely reliable, much more so than the X10 protocol that we rely on to contrl the lights. It's very stable, and I have not restarted my Performa 6200 that is my XTension host since my last power failure coupled with bad UPS several months ago. It just keeps chugging right along, 24x7. However, I don't think I would count on it to drive my car or run a pacemaker. > >Any suggestions as to how to get XTension behaving reliably and as >advertised will be much appreciated. I think that once you track down the root of this serial port problem it should be licked (provided you don't have a "screwy" CM11a"). The preferences becomming corrupted can happen, but then that can happen to just about any application and may be related to the serial port stuff, so unless it becomes a persistent problem after figuring out the serial port, I wouldn't worry. My wife thought I was nuts to get >this in the first place; please prove her wrong. I think this is a pretty common spousal sentiment. Once you automate something she likes, she'll turn arround. Chad ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 08:47:17 -0700 From: Tresy Kilbourne Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness Joseph A. Wardell writes: >A quick search through info-mac finds a little 12k program called >port-closer-10.hqx. It simply closes a serial port that is or was used by >an application (either the app is sitting on it or quit but hasn't let it >go). This sounds like your problem. My suggestion: > >* Download it. >* Restart >* Run Port Closer and close whichever port you have the CM11 connected to >* Run XTension That sounds like a good idea. > >If you still have the same problem, then it is time for michael to refund >your money, since there's obviously something very wrong. I keep saying that I regard this problem as insignificant, since my G3 is not the host. I don't know why no one seems to hear it. > >If it does work, then you know that something's sitting on that port, and >it's a manner of finding out what. > >If you don't like Greg's suggestion, then how about using the trial version >of Conflict Catcher? It will do all the extension-switching for you until >you find the offending file. I did use CC a little before asking this list. With all the extensions I have, however, using CC is a fairly time consuming process. I thought asking the list might get the answer faster. Obviously I should have just plugged away with CC. Thank you for your help. _____________ Tresy Kilbourne Seattle WA PGP Keys ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 08:47:54 -0700 From: Steve Fyfe Subject: Re: An idea for a new feature. Sand Hill Engineering said on 4/20/1999 7:58 PM >What am I not getting? The verbs necessary to do this are >already there. Is the above example the way that everyone >wants to deal with this or is it just the 'programmers'...? I don't believe that is what is preventing anyone from using FaceSpan to build a new interface. The real issue, in my opinion, is that people in general (except for Chad ;-) ) do not want to recreate the whole interface from scratch. It does little good to put some small feature into a FaceSpan interface, only to have to switch back and forth between that and the regular XTension. That only makes using the system more complex. I actually did this, several months ago - I created a small control display for my RCS thermostat using REALbasic. It has a digital display for the current temp and the thermostat setting. It also has controls for the system fan, Heat/AC/Both/Off, and others. When I change these controls, it sends commands to XTension which sends them on to the thermostat. However, I never use this display because it is too much trouble - it is easier to just use the thermostat itself, or to change the standard XTension units. If there was an existing FaceSpan (or perhaps REALbasic) interface that provided a complete alternate GUI for XTension and people could modify it to add their own controls, then we might see more of this. Then again, we might not - maybe there is no real need here to satisfy. _____________________________________________________________ Steve Fyfe Windward Services Group (978) 386-7260 PO Box 340 (978) 386-7322 Fax Ashby, Massachusetts 01431-0340 Information Technology that Works for Your Business ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 08:50:43 -0700 From: "g. ross meyer" Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness >>Try removing your extensions/applications to see which one is eating >>your serial port. A quick test is to boot with the shift key down. >>This will prevent all extensions from loading. I also have a PB G3 300Mhz. I have not experienced the serial port getting locked out as described in this thread. Rather then start up with Extensions Off, use the Extensions Manager to select the "Mac OS 8.5 Base" set. Then restart. This will disable any third-party extensions or control panels that may be locking your port (perhaps FaxSTF, for example). This technique won't, however, turn off other essential things that are part of the base OS. You should also check the following Apple Tech Info Library articles to see if they help you resolve the problem. You can access the TIL via www.apple.com/support > Tech Info Library Article 30581: "SerialDMA 2.1 Update: Read Me" > > > PowerBook: Printing to Serial Printer w/One Serial Port (9/95) > Article ID: 16067 - ----- Gordon Meyer http://www.g2meyer.com/ p o w e r e d b y m a c i n t o s h ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 08:56:39 -0700 From: "Joseph A. Wardell" Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted >From: Tresy Kilbourne >To: "XTension Discussion" >Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted >Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999, 11:10 AM > > There is a tiny flaw in the X-10 > Command panel, as far as I am concerned, that causes the All Lights Off > command not to work (btw, this failure affects every module in the house, > not just the one I keep referencing). After some quick testing, I can verify that the X-10 command panel is a little flighty about the "All Lights Off" command. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, never did it work on more than one of the three lights I tried on house code B. Rarely did "All Lights On" work either. All three lights are set to "simulate preset dim" in XTension, and all three are the el-cheapo IBM Home Director type (two light modules and one in-wall switch). My guess is that either the simulate preset dim or the modules themselves are the problem. Perhaps a mixture of the two? I didn't feel like hunting this down since I never use the all lights/units on/off commands in my setup, but if michael wants to walk me through some tests, I'd be more than happy. In the interest of science and all that... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:10:07 -0700 From: JasonY@aol.com Subject: Xtension in a hard-wired system? Is it possible to get Xtension to control a completely hard-wired system? It would be nice to have all lights and outlets, as well as motion detectors hardwired. That way, the main weakness of an X-10 based HA system would be eliminated- the vagarities of the PLC itself. Any ideas how this could be done? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:15:09 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: X-10 ALL commands Joseph A. Wardell wrote: > After some quick testing, I can verify that the X-10 command panel is a > little flighty about the "All Lights Off" command. Sometimes it worked, > sometimes it didn't, never did it work on more than one of the three lights > I tried on house code B. Rarely did "All Lights On" work either. Hello Joseph, Thanks for the offer to help. I am most interested in the consistency of the behavior of these 'All' commands. You say that it never worked on 'more than one' light. Does that mean that 'at least one' always responds? Since I have multiple controllers here, I can send these commands from one Mac and watch it come in on the other. Plus I have the Monterray X-10 signal analyzer watching. So far, every time I've sent these commands, I see them come in on both the analyzer and the 'monitor' Mac. This is consistent regardless of which Mac or LynX/CM11 is sending. Is this possibly just a X-10 flake ? michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:15:48 -0700 From: Chad A Gard Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted >Here're the complete symptoms: > >1) Click A1 on = ON. >2) Click A1 off = OFF Those two seem fine.... >3) Click (repeatedly) A1 Dim = NOTHING (though master list and log >reflect command sent; control panel slider also works. Unit is defined as >dimmable.) Is this list commands in order? If you send an A1 dim and the unit is off....Well, where does it dim to? >4) Click "All lights ON" = ON That seems to make sense. >5) Click "All lights OFF" = NOTHING (light stays on) That doesn't. >6) Click "All units OFF" = OFF I'm curious....Do any appliance modules stay on when you send all units off? Perhaps the commands are somehow being reversed by XTension? > >I also can't get my A3 unit to behave reliably, but I am reasonably >certain that's because it's on the "wrong branch" of my house current >(though why a solution to this obviously ubiquitous problem isn't part of >the startup hardware is a complete mystery to me). > It's not because it's not an issue for many people. A way to test this would be to turn on a 220V electical device, such as an oven, and send the command. If it improves that is the case. If it is, then you need a bridge or amp/bridge. Also, have you tried changing your A1 to a differenc module and different lamp? Sometimes (actually more frequently than one would like) X10 ships bad modules. Sometimes they ship several together. I once ordered 3 lamp modules and got 3 that didn't work. Your problem really sounds like a module problem or an electrical noise problem more than an XTension or interface problem to me. There may be some intermitent noise, or corroded wire connections along the way somewhere, and the signals are just barely able to get through, and when they're done through the control panel or scripting and respond differently is just coincidence. One little test procedure I found helpful. Get a power strip. The cheap kind works fine. Plug both the CM11a and the module you want to test into the power strip. Make sure you do the CM11a voodo while you're futzing. Plug the computer into something else (computer power supplies are frequently X10 signal suckers and you may need to get a filter for your computers or put them on UPS's to take care of that). Now issue commands to the moudle. Being on the same power strip you should have no problems with signal strength because of bad/loose/corroded connections in the electrical systems. It won't, however, usually do anything about electical noise, except in some circumstances if the power strip also has a surge supressor. >Also, there is a "Status" button on the X-10 Commands panel, which, when >clicked, invariably returns "Error -27: no response received from query >request." Included here in case that is significant. (The manual is >silent on what this is used for.) Very few modules respond to status requests. Just the newer, more expensive modules and switches, and those don't all do it the same way. If you send a status request for a module that isn't a "two way" module, then you will not get a response back, hence the error. > HTH Chad Gard Butler University, Instructional Media Services WWW: http://media.butler.edu Equipment Requests: Mailto:request@media.butler.edu Personal Email: Mailto:gard@indy.net "If you're falling off a cliff, you might as well try to fly. After all, you don't have anything to lose." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:37:04 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Re: Xtension in a hard-wired system? JasonY@aol.com wrote: > > Is it possible to get Xtension to control a completely hard-wired system? It > would be nice to have all lights and outlets, as well as motion detectors > hardwired. That way, the main weakness of an X-10 based HA system would be > eliminated- the vagarities of the PLC itself. Any ideas how this could be > done? Hi Jason, I don't think that there is a 'complete' solution to this yet. By complete, I also mean 'reasonable'. Reasonable means that it is readily available to non-hackers, and at a price that doesn't make it a Bill Gates thing... I have no allegiance to X-10 and would readily adopt CEBUS or LonWorks or any other good solution if it were as 'complete' as the X-10 system. That's why XTension was designed to be modular. If (when) someone comes up with a more reasonable solution, I'll be on it like a possum on prunes... Until that time, I would suggest that it is possible to create a hybrid system using hard wires to those places that are most sensitive, running them into a wiring closet where they are connected either to (many) Powerflash modules, or one of the 16-relay boards that issue and respond to X-10 commands. Then have your XTension Mac and the controller located in that same closet, on the same power circuit. Thus, whenever a reasonable hard-wired solution appears, the wires are already there, running to the right place. And you can be assured that XTension (or some decendant) will be there to serve it. I've mentioned that I'm really a hardware developer? I could probably make a lot more money if I just started installing 'custom' systems. If only the Hill weren't such a comforting place...:-) michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:40:09 -0700 From: Chad A Gard Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted >michael@shed.com writes: > >> This file is >>only read at startup, and changed only when you change one >>of the prefs in the Preferences dialog. >The one and only one unusual thing that I did between the time that >XTension worked and when it didn't, involved setting up my G3 to monitor >my Performa, using the plug-in that was included with YOUR tutorial on >networking Macs. As you know, the scripts included with that package set >the "target" Mac in the respective Macs to the other machine, then >"remove" them at shutdown. If one goes to the Preferences, one sees the >results of the scripts in the Communications panel. > >So, first, it's distinctly possible that the prefs file was changed WHILE >the program was open, contrary to what you are telling me. Actually, it was changed while the program was running, as Michael said above, when you made a changein the Preferences dialog, though in this case by a script. > >Secondly, I just went to my system folder to look at the XTension prefs >file. I have not touched the program (which is running) since over an >hour ago. Nor have I touched my Mac beyond opening the preferences >folder. Yet in the three minutes since I first looked at it (I'm a slow >typist), the "Date Modified" has changed THREE times--once each minute. >This is somewhat inconsistent with what you state above, is it not? Do you have the checkbox to write system time to disk checked? If so, then once a minute it will write the systems time to your disk, hence once each minute it will change the date modified. This is used to give the lovely log message "system has been down since...." when XTension comes back up, for example, after a crash or power failure. However, you can turn it off by unchecking that checkbox. > >You obviously refuse to believe that a bug in XTension itself may be the >cause of my problems, despite all evidence pointing in that direction. >You may be right, but in my experience I have had many encounters with >software people exactly like this, where I'm defensively told that I >can't possibly be experiencing what I am obviously experiencing, and that >in any case the software is not the problem. In most cases it turns out >that they are wrong, not I. This may prove to be a minority case, but so >far I see no evidence that it is. I think I need to stick up for Michael here. I've never met a developer more responsive to user's wants and needs, and with which one can have such active conversation daily. He freely admits when he finds bugs, often before any of us notice, and also frequently adds new features that most developers would consider minor and unimportant, just because a person or two asked. However, he can't fix a bug if he can't track down what it is, and he's simply trying to find out if either it is not a bug, but a hardware/wiring problem on your end, or if it is a bug, what exactly it is so he can fix it. > >PS I cannot test the lamp module, as you suggest, by plugging it into >either the CM11 or the adjacent outlet it's plugged into, because my >computer plug occupies the CM11 outlet, and the bulk of the interface >unit precludes using the adjacent outlet. Aaaaahaaaaaaa!!!!!!!! I'll give you 5 to 1 that that is the source of the problem! Many computer power supplies wreak havok on X10 signals. I'm almost sure plugging your computer into the CM11a (aka IBM home director) is killing your X10 signals. I'd bet money if I had any. However, IBM ran me through >controlling the CM11 directly via plugging the transceiver into it, and >it operated the lamp just fine. Actually, if you plugged a transceiver into the CM11a, you must have unplugged the computer, right? In addition, you wouldn't have been controlling the CM11a, but rather controlling the module directly. The CM11a was out of the loop. One thing you might want to remember, too, is the IBM does not make/design the Home Director. X10 does, and it is the CM11a with a different label. Chad Gard Butler University, Instructional Media Services WWW: http://media.butler.edu Equipment Requests: Mailto:request@media.butler.edu Personal Email: Mailto:gard@indy.net "If you're falling off a cliff, you might as well try to fly. After all, you don't have anything to lose." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:41:54 -0700 From: "Joseph A. Wardell" Subject: Re: X-10 ALL commands > You say that it never worked on 'more than one' light. > Does that mean that 'at least one' always responds? If only. Sometimes there's no response. Sometimes the one in the bedroom comes on/goes off, sometimes the one in the living room. The only one that hasn't responded (yet) in these tests is the one in the office (which is of course the one I can see when I'm at the computer...). > Since I have multiple controllers here, I can send these commands > from one Mac and watch it come in on the other. The database on my one mac does properly update as the signal goes out. I imagine that a series of machines mirroring one another would operate the same. Not to be snooty, but could that be what you're seeing? > Plus I have the Monterray X-10 signal analyzer watching. Well, perhaps not... > So far, every time I've sent these commands, I > see them come in on both the analyzer and the 'monitor' Mac. > This is consistent regardless of which Mac or LynX/CM11 is sending. I am using the IBM controller. Don't know if that clues you in or not. > Is this possibly just a X-10 flake ? Doubtful, since these three lights are the most commonly controlled items in my house and they normally run pretty stable. Dims, on/offs, from XTension or from minicontroller or remote all work. Just this all lights on_off seems to be a problem. This is definitely not a big deal to me. Like I say, I never use those commands. Just thought it might help you if you're having trouble figuring it out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:49:46 -0700 From: Steve Fyfe Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted Tresy Kilbourne said on 4/21/1999 11:10 AM >There is a tiny flaw in the X-10 >Command panel, as far as I am concerned, that causes the All Lights Off >command not to work (btw, this failure affects every module in the house, >not just the one I keep referencing) In case you missed my previous post on this topic... This is not a problem in XTension if none of your x10 modules were built to respond to the All Lights Off command. None of my modules react to that command, and there is a good chance that your's don't either. Probably, XTension is correctly sending the command, and your modules ignore it. That is not XTension's problem. Unless you know for sure that you have modules that do respond to that command, we can only assume that there is no problem here at all. _____________________________________________________________ Steve Fyfe Windward Services Group (978) 386-7260 PO Box 340 (978) 386-7322 Fax Ashby, Massachusetts 01431-0340 Information Technology that Works for Your Business ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 09:52:14 -0700 From: Chad A Gard Subject: Re: Advice for new house >That's where is the problem. >If I wanted to attach one wire to each window, door and curtain of my >house, I would need nearly tons of copper! >And it's there that we rediscover that a network (bus) is by far >preferable. > >CEBus or I2C are probably the solutions for future, but for now what I >would prefer is a RS422 line running down the walls with a small module >for each window (or room) talking to the line. That's a fun thought. But how 'bout something a little simpler. Have banks of windows with contact closures wired in series. So, say you have 6 big picture windows in the living room. Wire them in series. Now you can have a contact closure that says "all the picture windows in the living room are closed" or "one or more of the picture windows in the living room is opened." You wouldn't have to run the wire all the way back for each window, but rather each bank of windows. Of course, when a mouse chews through one a wire, you loose it all.... Chad Gard Butler University, Instructional Media Services WWW: http://media.butler.edu Equipment Requests: Mailto:request@media.butler.edu Personal Email: Mailto:gard@indy.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 10:12:05 -0700 From: Chad A Gard Subject: Re: An idea for a new feature. >The real issue, in my opinion, is that people in general (except for Chad >;-) ) do not want to recreate the whole interface from scratch. LOL! Just a note - what I'm recreating isn't XTension's interface, but rather the fictional LCARS interface. The main reason I'm doing it is to gain a common interface between several databases I have and my home automation system, and the ability to have a virtually unlimited (not really, but the technical description of FileMaker's network ID number generating thingy is way off topic) number of "monitor" copies. So I'll have a "terminal" in every room, just like Star Treak. Of course this is not the "norm" for XTension users (is there a norm?), so I wouldn't even want Michael to think about wasting time that could better be spent elsewhere to accomodate that. However, the whole GUI plug-in thing I think would be really swell, because it would help foster the community spirit of XTension users, and it would allow Michael to get away from the GUI code that he doesn't like anyway. Chad Gard Butler University, Instructional Media Services WWW: http://media.butler.edu Equipment Requests: Mailto:request@media.butler.edu Personal Email: Mailto:gard@indy.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 12:15:59 -0700 From: "Joseph A. Wardell" Subject: Re: X-10 ALL commands Alright, I have egg on my face... Here's the result of some better testing (I took the time to really watch things): YES = does what you want NO = doesn't do anything All Units Off housecode B Office (module) YES LR (module) YES Bedroom (switch) YES All Lights On housecode B Office (module) YES LR (module) YES Bedroom (switch) YES All Lights Off housecode B Office (module) NO LR (module) NO Bedroom (switch) YES All results are consistent over time Works the same through the X-10 Controls window, the command line, or in a script Tried this using a fresh (empty) database as well as with my regular, all kinds of stuff going on, one. Works the same no matter what. I don't have a controller that sends All Lights Off, believe it or not, so I can't verify it from that side. Looks to me like a problem with the IBM lamp modules, though. Basically, a false alarm. Sorry to waste everyone's time. >> After some quick testing, I can verify that the X-10 command panel is a >> little flighty about the "All Lights Off" command. Sometimes it worked, >> sometimes it didn't, never did it work on more than one of the three lights >> I tried on house code B. Rarely did "All Lights On" work either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 12:22:34 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Re: X-10 ALL commands Hello Joseph, That is not a waste of time ! There's nothing better in troubleshooting than to get a consistently reproducible result. Thank you for taking your time and effort ! michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 12:43:50 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness Hi Folks, Since this is the fastest way to get info, and my brains are leaking out, someone tell me the magic keystrokes for zapping PRAM at reboot... please? I'm doing some interesting tests and this is the last straw... michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 13:02:27 -0700 From: Iamsmall@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Serial Port Silliness In a message dated 4/21/99 2:44:49 PM, you wrote: >Since this is the fastest way to get info, and my brains >are leaking out, someone tell me the magic keystrokes >for zapping PRAM at reboot... please? Don't you hold down COMMAND, SHIFT, P, R at startup? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 13:17:30 -0700 From: Robert Ladle Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness >Hi Folks, > >Since this is the fastest way to get info, and my brains >are leaking out, someone tell me the magic keystrokes >for zapping PRAM at reboot... please? > >I'm doing some interesting tests and this is the last straw... >michael Michael Try: Zapping the PRAM: - key method Restart the computer. Immediately hold down "option", "Apple", "P", and "R". Continue holding them down until you hear four "restart chimes". Let go of the keys. It should start up normally. I prefer using Tool Tech - it's cleaner and does a better job. Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 13:28:52 -0700 From: hvaneeden@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Serial Port Silliness Tresy Kilbourne wrote: > > Greg Satz writes: > > >Try removing your extensions/applications to see which one is eating > >your serial port. A quick test is to boot with the shift key down. > >This will prevent all extensions from loading. > Yes, including AppleScript, so then XTension won't run. So unless I want > to manually remove every extension except AS, that's not an option. I > have tried removing all serial port related software though, to no avail. > Thanks for taking the time to help though. > Try Conflict catcher or equivalent-should be easy then! Henk > _____________ > Tresy Kilbourne > Seattle WA > PGP Keys ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 13:31:49 -0700 From: hvaneeden@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted Chuck Rice wrote: > > At 10:06 PM -0700 1999/04/20, Tresy Kilbourne wrote: > > >In any event, try to remember that I am the customer, and not your > >employee, OK? Nor am I some little old lady from Pasadena who thinks this > >is the Clapper. I am a Mac user with about 13 years' experience. > > These posts just seem rude. > > I know that the PowerBook G3 serial port works. > > I know that XTension works. > > I know that Michael does everything he can to help > people out and always gives them a square deal. > > After the string of posts I have seen this day, I > think that the problem may be elsewhere. This thread > has been over the edge. There may or may not be a > problem with the Prefs file processing file, but > lambasting Michael will not solve it, if it exists. > -Chuck- Hear, Hear! Henk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 14:15:53 -0700 From: Tresy Kilbourne Subject: Fwd: xtension problems >From the mailbag of tedious abuse sent by your allegedly "polite" listmembers comes this interesting attaboy, which, with the sender's permission, I would like to share. Looks like there's trouble in paradise, Michael. Obviously your fellow cult members haven't succeeded in driving all dissent off the list. However, they have succeeded with me. Au revoir. Further messages from your disciples will be routed promptly to my killfile. Tresy - ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 4/21/99 9:13 AM Received: 4/21/99 9:43 AM From: [deleted] To: Tresy Kilbourne, tresy@kilbourne-quirk.com tresy, just wanted to let you know that there are others beside yourself who have had problems with xtension. in fact [I have] opinions about its quality and reliability similar to yours. i often think the list should be called the "ferguson admirers list' as many of the people are intolerant of the facts. imho, xtension is a great concept (use of applescript for everything) with a pretty lousy implementation. it applescript approach is ad hoc as opposed to the more reasonable and consistant apple object model, and its ui is quirky and buggy and in general, just a pain to use. on top of that, the program is unreliable and crashes often when you do something that the authors didn't happen to think of. i've had problems that were corrected simply by quitting and restarting it! (and this without any evidence of memory leaks that could have caused it.) ferguson uses this list and his existing customers as his testers rather than putting quality into the program first and has an attitude that if it meets his needs, it doesn't matter how quirky or bad the ui is. the program was written by his son and is maintained by him. and he doesn't have a professional programming background -- he even has boasted about his lack of experience and disdain for modern programming practices and tools. perhaps i should add that i've been using xtension now for about 9 months and i hate it, but there is no substitute. i've found that if i stay with version 2.07 (instead of the current version which crashes when i delete events), and don't change things too often, it seems to stay up for days at a time. i've put in a number of scripts that seem to help such as automatically quiting and restarting once a week; and if i see too many x10 events on unused house codes (by using the attachments script), i also quit and restart. this quitting and restarting when receiving extraneous x10 events makes the problem go away -- imho, this is clearly some bug in xtension, but michael and the rest of the list insist it is a hardware, flaky x10 problem. i've been using x10 since the early 80s and have been programming even longer, and this behaviour is clearly a program bug (as are the crashes when manipulating events), but michael and the rest of the list prefer to bury their heads in the sand. anyway, just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone. [.sig deleted] - ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 14:35:39 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Re: Fwd: xtension problems Tresy: The name of the sender is well known. He was barred from sending to the list almost a year ago, but just can't seem to stop listening under an assumed name. He just loves to hear this kind of thing, and I knew that it wouldn't be long before you heard from him. Please understand that he is NOT one of our list members, for very good reasons. Frankly, I don't care what he says. It's always the same thing. Always hateful. Please folks let's not let this flame up again. It serves only one person's ego. michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 14:47:43 -0700 From: Steve Fyfe Subject: Re: X-10 ALL commands Joseph A. Wardell said on 4/21/1999 3:13 PM >I don't have >a controller that sends All Lights Off, believe it or not, so I can't verify >it from that side. AFAIK, none of the plugin controllers from X10 Corp send the All Lights Off command. I think this is part of the reason why the lamp modules do not recognize the command - X10 assumed that the command cannot be sent, so no sense responding to it. It is not at all unusual to have no way to send this command except from a computer. >Looks to me like a problem with the IBM lamp modules, though. Yes and no. Yes, if you expect it to work and it does not. But if the module is documented to not respond to that command, then it works as advertised. No, because these modules are the same thing as the X10 Corp modules. All these branded modules are built by X10 on behalf of the company which owns the brand name. The design is all the same, and it does not include support for this command. _____________________________________________________________ Steve Fyfe Windward Services Group (978) 386-7260 PO Box 340 (978) 386-7322 Fax Ashby, Massachusetts 01431-0340 Information Technology that Works for Your Business ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 15:13:35 -0700 From: "Michael S. Holtzman" Subject: Feature request: Do not log unit checkbox Greetings. I was looking through virtual reams of log output when this idea hit me. How about a checkbox in the "Edit Unit" screen that blocks logging for the unit? Normal logging is too verbose for most purposes, but exception logging is too extreme. Thoughts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 15:24:17 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Extended Code problem Hi Folks, The following is a description of the steps I've performed this afternoon in order to find the source of a weird problem. It involves the X-10 'extended code', and is pretty involved. So if you're not into geeky things, or have a weak stomach, just chuck this ... Based on recent posts, this ought to really lift your skirts :-) I noticed recently that when I flip the switch on the coffee pot to turn it on, I get different messages in the XTension logs on different Macs: On Mac A, I see: ...Received extended code from Coffee Pot level = 100 On Mac B, I see ...Received extended code from Coffee Pot level = 0 i The above behavior is consistent, no variations i The Monterray analyzer reports the Extended code, but does not show the 'value' byte...no help there. Here's what's involved with the problem: i A coffee pot on a AM14 'two-way' appliance module i Two Macs and two CM11's running XTension - The CM11's are plugged in to the same circuit, within about 5 feet of each other. - The CM11 on Mac A is closer to the circuit breaker, - The CM11 on Mac B is at the end of the line. So I do some tests: i Exchange the CM11's (minding the voodoo) No change. Mac B still shows level = 0 (several iterations, results are consistent) i Just to be complete, I swapped the Macs by running the cables to the 'other' CM11. Same results, Mac B still shows level = 0 regardless i Quit XTension on the Mac B, and tossed the XTension Prefs No Change i Quit XTension and restarted with no database (creates empty one) No Change i Quit XTension and reloaded 'fresh' copy of the application No Change i Quit and restarted the Mac B, Rebuilding the Desktop No Change i Quit and restarted, Zapping PRAM No Change i Quit XTension, transferred a little "CM11 monitor applet" to Mac B. This applet simply gathers raw data from the CM11. NOTE: The value received IS CORRECT. C0=OFF FF=ON !!!! i Set a MacsBug trap at the location in the code where the data is just received from the CommToolBox. DATA Received is CORRECT ! i Quit, removed MacsBug from the System Folder No Change (I've seen MacsBug do this kind of thing before) i Examined XTension source code at 'receive data'. There is no special handling for the different Macs/OS's i "Targeted" another copy of XTension From XTension on Mac B The event is recorded on the 'target' Mac CORRECTLY !!!!! i Removed target from Mac B. "Targeted" XTension on Mac B from XTension on Mac A The events are correctly logged on Mac A. The events are NOT correct on Mac B....!!! i Placed a trap in XTension on Mac B at the point where the AppleEvent from the 'received data' is first received from the AppleEvents Manager. BINGO: The DATA is now ZERO instead of FF =========================== Summary: The steps above do not reflect the fact that several different Macs were employed in different tests. (Quadra 800 os 7.6, PB5300 os 7.6, PB5300 os 8.1, MacSE os 7.1, PPC 7100 os 8.1, and Mac B which is a SE/30 running MacOS 7.1) It is interesting that Mac B can send the events to another copy of XTension, and they are correctly logged there. It is interesting that when another Mac sends the events TO Mac B, the Log entries are consistent with the original anomaly. (Always displays extended code received..level = 0) There is no distinction in the XTension source code that is executed on any of the Macs. They are all copied from the same object image. There is no special 'check' for SE/30 versus other models, and no check for OS versions. Where to go from here: I need another SE/30 running OS 7.1 AND other OS versions to test the receive of 'extended codes' from the AM14 appliance module. At this point it appears as if there is some difference between the MacOS's or something different in the older ROMs? Yes of course this can be a bug in XTension, but I've still got to be able to put my finger on the spot. If there's anyone who has the SE/30 and the AM14, I'd really appreciate some help on this. It would also be useful to hear whether anyone else has seen a similar problem with the extended codes. michael There I go again, guilty of releasing code that is not exhaustively tested ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 15:37:50 -0700 From: Mark Hartman Subject: Re: Extended Code problem At 3:26 PM -0700 4/21/1999, michael@shed.com wrote: >The following is a description of the steps I've performed >this afternoon in order to find the source of a weird problem. >It involves the X-10 'extended code', and is pretty involved. >So if you're not into geeky things, or have a weak stomach, >just chuck this ... >i Placed a trap in XTension on Mac B at the point where the > AppleEvent from the 'received data' is first received from > the AppleEvents Manager. >BINGO: The DATA is now ZERO instead of FF Michael, Is the DATA byte the LAST byte of the message, and by chance does the message contain an odd number of bytes? If this is the case, you might try always sending an even number of bytes in the message, even if you have to pad the message with a NUL; while this SHOULDN'T have any bearing on it, older versions of MacOS have been known to have word-boundary problems, and this should at least detect the problem, if not work around it. Regards Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 16:01:12 -0700 From: "Joseph A. Wardell" Subject: Re: X-10 ALL commands Steve Fyfe wrote: >>Looks to me like a problem with the IBM lamp modules, though. > > Yes and no. Yes, if you expect it to work and it does not. But if the > module is documented to not respond to that command, then it works as > advertised. > > No, because these modules are the same thing as the X10 Corp modules. All > these branded modules are built by X10 on behalf of the company which > owns the brand name. The design is all the same, and it does not include > support for this command. (I know there should be some emoticon for this, but I don't know the one for, as the British say, 'cheeky') Of course, there's that. I was trying to stay within the bounds of the problem in question, not get into Zen. If an X10 command fails in the middle of a script, and there's noone there to debug it, does it make a difference? I'll try to qualify any further posts with the proper existentialist considerations. Hey, I've had a tough day... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 16:02:37 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Re: Extended Code problem Hi Mark, Interesting idea. It is interesting that the SE/30 is the only 68030 in the problem set, and it is the only one that shows the error. It may yet be a 'odd' byte boundary problem, but I already do a AEPutParamPtr after the 'data' of the event is built. This is a new Parameter that I use to distinguish whether the event came from 'this' copy or a remote copy of XTension. I didn't use the IIci in this session, and it's an '030 from the same period... I'll see what it does. thanks michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 16:37:39 -0700 From: michael@shed.com Subject: Re: X-10 ALL commands Hi folks, I just grabbed some of the lamp modules from the barrel and tried some tests. Three different 'brands' of the 'common' X-10 lamp module all behave the same, consistently : None respond to the "All Lights OFF" command. All respond to the "All Lights ON" command. All respond to the "All Units OFF" command. The newer 'two-way' LM14a lamp module DOES respond to ALL of the above. hth michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 16:40:34 -0700 From: "Chuck and Karen Coleman" Subject: Re: xtension problems Some people just have to be negative. I guess without negative people we wouldn't know how nice it is to have positive people. For the record I have had XTension for 2 years. It is on an 040 machine that runs 24/7 and sits in a closet. It has failed a few times in that time. Mostly it was due to corruption in the system that will always happen over time. A few simple maintenance steps like rebuilding the desktop, checking the b-tree and defragmenting and the system is back and running great. X10 is not a perfect world. Anybody who expects that is in for a rude awakening. As for being a guinea pig, I don't mind. I like playing with X10 and seeing just how far I can push the technology. I would also venture to say that X10 is not for everyone. If you want a comparison try the Wintel X10 setup. It is a disaster per my brother who is a design engineer for Acer. He is finally getting a Mac to run his X10 system cause he sees how well my system runs even with the few problems that I have (which are minor in the overall scheme of things). Life is to short to get all bent out of shape over a stupid software program. Let's get on with something more productive. Chuck Coleman - ---------- > The name of the sender is well known. He was barred from > sending to the list almost a year ago, but just can't seem > to stop listening under an assumed name. > > He just loves to hear this kind of thing, and I knew that > it wouldn't be long before you heard from him. > > Please understand that he is NOT one of our list members, > for very good reasons. Frankly, I don't care what he says. > It's always the same thing. Always hateful. > > Please folks let's not let this flame up again. > It serves only one person's ego. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 17:29:43 -0700 From: hvaneeden@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: X-10 ALL commands The all lights off command never worked for me. I use the all units off command. Works just fine. Henk michael@shed.com wrote: > > Joseph A. Wardell wrote: > > > After some quick testing, I can verify that the X-10 command panel is a > > little flighty about the "All Lights Off" command. Sometimes it worked, > > sometimes it didn't, never did it work on more than one of the three lights > > I tried on house code B. Rarely did "All Lights On" work either. > > Hello Joseph, > > Thanks for the offer to help. I am most interested in the consistency > of the behavior of these 'All' commands. > > You say that it never worked on 'more than one' light. > Does that mean that 'at least one' always responds? > > Since I have multiple controllers here, I can send these commands > from one Mac and watch it come in on the other. > > Plus I have the Monterray X-10 signal analyzer watching. > > So far, every time I've sent these commands, I > see them come in on both the analyzer and the 'monitor' Mac. > This is consistent regardless of which Mac or LynX/CM11 is sending. > > Is this possibly just a X-10 flake ? > michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 20:07:49 -0700 From: Marc Parker Subject: Re: RCS Thermostats Anyone? Hello everyone, Forgive me for not being more gracious and introducing myself earlier, as Michael was so kind to do. As you may have noticed, I was having a bit of trouble early on installing a new RCS Bi-Directional Thermostat. I am pleased to announce that it is now fully functional and works wonderfully, thanks to the ever patient and logical Mr. Ferguson and the people at RCS. For the books, here is what happened: Wall unit was reading Celsius. This turns out to be caused by the wire resistance. Was using AWG 24 Cat V instead of the recommended AWG 22. I guess it pays to read the fine print! The Wall unit behaved fine until the run exceeded approx 60', then the trouble began. The unit shipped with a bad transformer, intermittent. This was quickly replaced. As Michael explained, I was using the command line interface to send requests and commands. Since I was in a hurry (to play, ofcourse) I used the "PRESET ADDRESS" verb. This threw a wrench into the works as I would not receive the correct response....SOMETIMES! This nearly drove me crazy michael, in his infinite wisdom and patience, took me step by step through a perfectly logical trouble shoot. Voila! There was the problem. Six hours later he had the cure and alas, a happy ending. I have subsequetly installed Steve Fryes plug-in and scripts and they too are working like a charm (well...99%). Needless to say, if it wasn't for insanely great tech support from michael at Xtension and some equally patience (and available) people at RCS, this most likely would have ended up bad all around (Read: RETURNED UNIT / FRUSTRATED CUSTOMER / DISSAPOINTED HA Freak!). Ramble: I have been using X-10 since 1980. (The year it was introduced by BSR I believe). It has come along ways, in some ways, and still has some of it's old bug-a-boo's (reliablility). Buy and large. though, the bar has been raised by people like Michael Furguson and the people at Companies like RCS, SmartLinc, and yes, even Leviton. I am NOT an electrical engineer, nor do I pretend to understand many aspectes of the X-10 voodoo (as michael so charmingly puts it), but I do know that it has allowed me to do many things that have genuine benefits AND had lots of fun with it along the way. I thank Michael for bringing Xtension to my favorite toy of all....THE MAC! Long live both.... Marc Parker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 21:00:55 -0700 From: BHusler@PacBell.net Subject: Re: Xtension Prefs Corrupted I don't believe that I have seen a response to the other problem mentioned by Tresy yet. That being the error message upon clicking on the status icon. If I understand this correctly, the Status icon gives you access to "query" a device and learn it's current status. This feature is dependent on the outlying device support for the "extended" X-10 codes. These codes are only supported by newer high-end devices and most certainly not those in the beginner pack. Perhaps Michael should add a checkbook for this support on the device definition panel (as well as for the ALL LIGHTS OFF command). This may start to make the interface a little more intimidating, however, and may not serve the intended purpose as most of us don't really know what a particular module does or does not support (X-10 is not heavy on this sort of documentation). AH-HA perhaps this idea for future enhancement has been flowed previously, but I know Michael (or his surrogates elsewhere on this list) tries to get his hands on every device manufactured by any manufacturer and exhaustively test all the commands - perhaps a drop down menu with a list of model numbers with pre-defined features sets would help. OK, so you may also have to ask for the purchase date since the specs sometimes seem to change over time... Oh well, it was just a thought. Just a note on the Serial port thing, I use a G3 powerbook all day everyday with many different applications that use the serial port and have got to say that it's availability is more that a little flaky. Its not uncommon for me run an application that uses the serial port, go off to one our our marathon meetings, come back and try the same function again only to find that this time it reports the serial port is not available. Sometimes, I can hop over to another application (i.e.. a part of M$ Office suite for example), shut it down, hop back and try the function again and have success. This is true even though I have 96M of RAM and am not even close to using it all. Other times, I have to reboot. In my case, this drastic measure seems to always work, but I simply use it as an example of my trials with the serial port. Also, some programs seem to be more susceptible to this than are others. I have a number of programs that would like to use the serial port. I generally leave them all disable unless I intentionally want to do something (this seems best as I have never had much success using my Palm pilot cradle to let my computer dial out to my ISP or administer my router). All the programs I use rely on CTB. Even when ccMail remote refuses to access the serial port, I can bring up Palm's Hot sync manager (for example), enable it and sync fine. I think it is simply a question of how polite your program is with respect to serial port compatibility (potentially, the more polite program would be more sensitive to indications that the port is in use). The only missing piece of information in Michael's serial access is "which program has it", but I don't think that information is available. That being the case, I could only suggest that the specifics of which CTB call failed and what the parameters and results codes were would be useful for those of us that like to deal at that level (or have reached it out of frustration). Bill John Brumleve wrote: > Steve's point about the difference between "ALL UNITS" and > "ALL LIGHTS" must be considered as well. > > Regards, > John ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 22:05:19 -0700 From: Greg Satz Subject: Re: Fwd: xtension problems An unfortunate ending to what was turning out to be a difficult problem. The problem wasn't XTension or its author as much as it was the user. X-10 isn't plug and play. If you have that expectation you aren't going to be very happy. In this case the user didn't seem to be very motivated to do anything except complain about the situation. He wanted others to do something about it. By the time he sent email he had no patience left to listen let alone try anything. To wit he only needed a single data point to justify his unhappiness. Whereas all the folks on this list couldn't convince him they had a working solution. Oh well. I still consider this to be the best list I have been on in the 20+ years I have spent using email. Keep up the good work. Greg At 2:15 PM -0700 4/21/99, Tresy Kilbourne wrote: > >From the mailbag of tedious abuse sent by your allegedly "polite" >listmembers comes this interesting attaboy, which, with the sender's >permission, I would like to share. Looks like there's trouble in >paradise, Michael. Obviously your fellow cult members haven't succeeded >in driving all dissent off the list. However, they have succeeded with >me. Au revoir. Further messages from your disciples will be routed >promptly to my killfile. > >Tresy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1999 22:05:42 -0700 From: Greg Satz Subject: Re: Extended Code problem At the risk of boring the rest of the list (apologies in advance): 1) My favorite Mac OS programming bug: using the wrong size data type in a rom api call. The Mac API is too forgiving about letting you use a long when a short is called for. Or the opposite. 2) how does 0xFF turn into (decimal?) 100? I recall somewhere that booleans (on the Mac?) return 0 for false and 0x0100 for true and thus are 16 bit shorts. Could this value be mapped to true/false somewhere? Greg At 6:26 PM -0400 4/21/99, michael@shed.com wrote: >i Quit XTension, transferred a little "CM11 monitor applet" > to Mac B. This applet simply gathers raw data from the CM11. >NOTE: The value received IS CORRECT. C0=OFF FF=ON !!!! > >i Set a MacsBug trap at the location in the code where the > data is just received from the CommToolBox. > DATA Received is CORRECT ! > >i Quit, removed MacsBug from the System Folder > No Change (I've seen MacsBug do this kind of thing before) > >i Examined XTension source code at 'receive data'. > There is no special handling for the different Macs/OS's > >i "Targeted" another copy of XTension From XTension on Mac B > The event is recorded on the 'target' Mac CORRECTLY !!!!! > >i Removed target from Mac B. > "Targeted" XTension on Mac B from XTension on Mac A > The events are correctly logged on Mac A. > The events are NOT correct on Mac B....!!! > >i Placed a trap in XTension on Mac B at the point where the > AppleEvent from the 'received data' is first received from > the AppleEvents Manager. >BINGO: The DATA is now ZERO instead of FF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Digest To request a copy of the help file, reply to this message and put "help" in the subject.